Penny is a CODA who is sharing her experiences from the heart.
Penny is a CODA who is sharing her experiences from the heart.
Hello and welcome to Tina's Corner podcast. Now we are a group of like minded sign language interpreters set out to improve the field of sign language interpreting. Now we have deaf consumers, hearing consumer and both hearing and deaf interpreters. That completes the triad. And the focus of this podcast is to strengthen that triad. Now all persons regardless of years of experience, will benefit from our guests. I am Tina Perry, and I welcome you. Today I've invited Penny Wood to share her insights experiences so that others can see that interpreters traveled different roads on their journey, only to arrive at the same destination, equality of information for our consumers. Now today's journey is going to include Penny, who is a CODA a child of deaf adults. So Penny, welcome.
Penny:Good morning.
Tina:Good morning. I'm glad you're here. I know today everybody's gonna really benefit from you. Now, I wanted to say a little bit about you. Penny and I are cousins. And our both of our mothers are deaf are my mom's family & Penny's family, mom's family come from a huge family have about 14 kids. And of those 14 six are deaf and that includes Penny's mom, my mom and our other interpreter cousin, his mom as well. And those three are you talk about a triad. Those three were wherever one was the other was now unfortunately my mom has passed but Penny, Penny's mom and the other cousin. Their moms are they're pretty tight wouldn't you say Penny.
Penny:Yes, I believe that the only world my mom does know is her sisters.and brothers.
Tina:Yeah they're all pretty tight. Now not all of them can sign which is another podcast I would say, but of the ones who are deaf are able to sign but grandma and grandpa they could not sign they just gestured and, or whatever they needed to do to make sure that information got across. Now, Penny wasn't always an interpreter, but worked as a dental assistant for 10 years. She really never thought about becoming an interpreter. And I'm going to ask her what made her become an interpreter at some point. Now I know Penny, like I said, because we are cousins and our mothers or sisters. I think Penny is one of the funniest persons around. I here's my advice. Never have to pee when you're with her. So Penny Welcome, and thanks for being with us today. Now, Penny you have a pretty rich past. And I want you to share that with us today. But first, I want you to tell me a little bit about your family dynamics.
Penny:Yes, I would say each family we all have our own dynamics. But what makes my family unique, or I think maybe caused a little struggle along the way is my mom was one of 14 like Tina said she was not the oldest, but almost the youngest. And again with her parents not signing, she had limited language. My dad is hard of hearing. He grew up with no language, he didn't really learn the English language or signing my mom taught him to sign. So he has some limitations there as well. I have a brother, he is younger. I'm the oldest of the two. He never had to do any interpreting or signing that was left to me. So I never really thought about becoming an interpreter. I, the thought never crossed my mind. And as a matter of fact, I really didn't know what CODA meant until I became an interpreter. That term just was never, I never thought of or heard of.
Tina:Yeah, that's not that probably was just like we were labeled that way. I don't think with and I may be wrong. But I think we as CODAs just said we got deaf parents or mom or dad or deaf. We never really labeled ourselves with that code. I think it's a it's a good educational term for people that don't know who CODAs are. So let's talk a little bit about your interpreting past. Now. We're going to use that term, interpreting very loosely because we know as CODAs, when we interpreted, we probably weren't really interpreting. So did you interpret or sign for your parents, as a child?
Penny:I signed for my parents. But as a child, I was only able to sign things that I knew. Therefore, if it was a difficult topic, the difficult information was emitted. And I just interpreted what I understood as a child. I don't know that it was an interpreter. I felt that I really didn't have a choice there at that time. Interpreters really weren't used. I mean, we've come a long way and we still have a long way to go. But there were there was no my brother was younger. As I said, I had a grandmother on my dad's side. And he she I'm sorry. She didn't really sign so I had to do the, you know, the, the communication for my parents, whatever they needed. And that started around four to five years old.
Tina:Wow. Werethere you said you have a brother of course I know you do your brother tell me about his role.
Penny:His role was somewhere to just being me he was just allowed to be a child being never had to do an interpreting no responsibility in the realm of that, as a matter of fact, I had to pretty much act like the little mom. I felt like I had three kids. I had my dad, my mom and my brother to take care of.
Tina:Yeah, so you were kind of head of the household. I'm not gonna lie, Penny. Looking back on it course, you're younger than me. But I always thought that Penny is a little brat. And anybody call you a brat?
Penny:I was a brat. I was feisty. I had to it was just me and three other people that I had to take care of. And, you know, I growing up looking back, I see that I was a brat. And I mean, I do regret some of that. But I think I turned out I think I learned from it. There was I wouldn't, but because of where I was positioned. It was a different dynamic. A child respects their parents. I'm not going to say I don't respect my parents. It was just a different relationships.
Tina:Absolutely. Did that impact you at school?
Penny:It did. It did. I had a very difficult time. I hated school. I was allowed to stay home a lot. I I look, I probably am one year missed 76 days. ,
Tina:Why did that happen for us? Because that same thing for me too.
Penny:Well, in my house, it my mom had two playmates that she kept my brother and I home we got to go bowling, White Castles and she was lonely. It was just her her house. She was raised with 14 siblings. And all of a sudden she is in a world of two children and a husband and I think that was lonely for her. I remember going to your house quite a bit. We didn't live far. And we walked over to your house. It felt like every day, but I'm sure it wasn't but
Tina:Right. And so yeah, you know, what about the school? How did they react to you being absent so much? I mean, I think they had to come to you, right? And say, hey, Penny's absent. And you're like, Yeah, I know. I am. How did that? How did that play out for you? Where's it? Was it okay, cuz it was for me. I just use the excuse my parents are deaf.
Penny:You know, I never I do not recall mentioning that my parents were deaf. Never mentioned that at all. Really so and they never addressed my absence.
Tina:Interesting. They felt sorry,
Penny:I wrote the note. I wrote a note. My mom signed it. I spoke at the school. And that was the end of the conversation now. We had parent teacher conference, then they would realize, oh, the parents are deaf. Neither party realized that my me interpreting that meeting was for my benefit. Yeah, I interpreted what they should hear and omitted what they should not hear.
Tina:You know what? Talking about notes. I wrote notes. I would write my mom. Because what did that with? My mom would say Tina was headache today. (Penny) Right. Like no, no, they're not. So you know what? You're right. I wrote my notes. Mom signed him. And then I got really good. I wrote the notes and signed mom's name. Did you ever do that exact?
Penny:Oh, yeah. So progress reports, report cards. Why? Again, and I would have to explain, I don't know that we want to get into the education. My mom only went to the fourth grade reading and writing which was very difficult. So as to this day. So her education and having parents that don't sign and and I don't want to say anything negative, but why would you have children that you can't communicate with?
Tina:I often wondered why grandma and grandpa had that many kids like of course, you know, we're talking way back no birth control this and that. But you know, my mom, okay, we know the dynamics. There are half brothers and sisters. And then there's my mom who was like the first of course, she would say, but you know, my mom was the firstborn deaf in the family. And it was like, I don't know. What do you think grandma, grandma like will Okay, here we go and just keep having them.
Penny:I wish I could understand that whole. You know, growing up, that was the one thing that really was irritating when we would go visit her. You know, the other cousins that really didn't have that responsibility of interpreting could play outside, I had to stay in the house because my mom wanted to tell my grandma something and vice versa. And I just thought that was ridiculous that they could not have a normal conversation as mother and daughter should.
Tina:Yeah, I agree, especially when you have more than one, like you would think at some point, like, we need to be able to communicate with them. But that just didn't happen. They just didn't know
Penny:And my mom was, you know, mom was a twin. And then she continued on to have one more(grandma).
Tina:Yeah, yeah. And another deaf child, Kathy? (Penny)Right. Like, yeah, but at any rate, alright. So it sounds like to me, you were the parent, interpreter. You were all the roles in your family, which is not, um, I don't want to say it's not uncommon. I don't want to say it's common. It's just how that played out in your family. Because with my family, you know, I have an older brothers, older brothers and sisters. So I'm number four, I'm the ring finger, out of five in my family. And my role, as far as the interpreter was different, your role was much more different. I think you had even much, many more responsibilities. What about your dad? Like, what were the dynamics between you and your dad?
Penny:He was, he could speak, but only I could understand. So he considered being hard of hearing the dynamic is, he had the same, he went to 10th grade. But he only probably learned as much as no more than my mom did going to the fourth, because he wasn't able to hear. And he also couldn't sign so he was in and out of just regular classrooms that he would run away and things of that nature. So he was not the communication for him. He learned sign language from my mom. And it was frustrating because I, again, he depended on me to make phone calls. So calling auto parts store at six years old, asking if they had a transmission for, you know, a 3.6 liter 1964 Ford Taurus. I mean, it's just, you know, yeah, as a child, those numbers and things of that nature does. They fdon't make sense. But, again, it must have been sufficient because we got the car fixed. Do you one thing I wasn't successful at and even now, as many of you experience, and it's no different for me as a child is when you call a company to pay a bill and the dea consumer, my dad, by all right, that bill was way too high, and they should give him a break and take care of that bill. And there's no way to make either party understand what the culture dynamics are that we're dealing with. I didn't understand, I was seven years old, I'm telling them. Look, there's something wrong with our electric bill. It's too high. And when they start naming off kilowatts and reasons, as a child, I just look at my dad, of course, he expects me to understand and so therefore, he's yelling at me that I'm not being an effective interpreter.
Tina:Do you think now today, you're doing video relay? Am I correct? You're VRS?
Penny:Yes, full time VRS.
Tina:And do you ever have calls that kind of take you back to your childhood, like, on you, it's so funny that you bring up about the auto parts, because that's my, I remember the auto parts going there and interpreting for my mom, she needed a part. But at any rate, there are times where I'll get a call. And it's like, oh, that took me back. And sometimes it's like, Thank God, it took me back. Because, you know, I know all the all the car parts and this and that, but I'd say and I always say that that came from having to interpret as a child, have you ever had a moment like that?
Penny:At least once a day. Technology for these older deaf people is so difficult. And for the terminology we have, you know, our vocabulary today is different. And so it's, they're struggling, and we're having to turn our hat sideways and try to make the best of it. You know, they don't understand billing ahead. You know, I just paid my bill, why do I owe another? You know, $100 you're billed ahead. For them? No, you use the service and then you pay for it. That's paying ahead. That's not so that's a challenge.
Tina:Yeah, and I think I think we're careful to say that not all deaf people, you know, some of them are like, right on they got it, you know, but there are some that
Penny:You're exactly right and that what brings me to my next point growing up, I had my own little bubble, it was just the three of us and our language. And, you know, until I became an interpreter, I honestly thought everybody was just like us. And when I was exposed to a whole new world, my eyes were just enlightened. I was surprised they were you actually are mainstreamed in a school? With an interpreter, that was my very first job that you presented when you called me and I have no clue. If they actually do, there's no difference other than the challenges.
Tina:Exactly. I know my first interpreting job, I you started using home signs, and I'm like, you guys don't sign that for pizza, or this is not your sign for cereal or, um, I'm just using those. I don't know if those were specifically what I use then. But I was like, we made home signs. I thought everybody did that.
Penny:Exactly. Yeah. And your way. And I learned a lot of signs. I mean, I thought, that's all the signs that were needed in order to communicate. And so when I became an interpreter, I'm thinking, Oh, I can't fingerspell this whole assignment. Yeah, we're gonna be here all day. And you're not going to understand any of it exactly, though,
Tina:You know, there are times when I'm in an interpreting assignment, I'm really struggling trying to get to get that message across, and I'll and I'll put your mom's face or Kathy's face on them. Because I know if I can get your mom or Kathy understand, I'm probably going to be able to get there. But sometimes I and that's advice I even gave to students, when I taught like, find somebody that you know, like, I need to make them understand if you can get them to get the message that you're trying to interpret, then replace the face, you know, and sometimes I've had to do that.
Penny:And the other thing that I hope that, you know, I certainly don't want to be insulting to, you know, when I'm interpreting to the other person, but I get they look at me like I did it. I understood that you just signed you don't need to sign it 10 different ways. So they give me the head nod. And of course, naturally, I get the head nod from my parents all the time, and they absolutely don't understand. So they almost need to do more than a head mob to get me to stop. It's like no, I understood I'm you don't need to please sign Exact English, or that's a challenge for me. I'm, that's not my first place to go to. My parents are grassroots ASL.
Tina:I understand exactly what you're saying. They're like, yeah, can you move on? Oh, yeah,
Penny:Right. I don't need no, you know, skip the classifiers you know, you don't need expand, we're good. I understood that word. I know the definition of the word exactly.
Tina:I know what you're talking about. So So tell me I think you kind of alluded to it. You're You're rich heritage with your parents? How do you think that's impacted you today's interpret? I think we heard a little bit about that. But is there anything else you want to add about? Thank God, I have deaf parents, because this is who that's really helped me to be who I am today.
Penny:It's made me a better interpreter. It's made me want to become better. You're never, for me, I'm always learning, I'm always amazed that the different signs, you know, across countries United States, whatever it may be, I'm just amazed at the language. And it makes me want to become a better person, education, because my parents did not have enough education. Therefore it overflowed. It wasn't important for them for me to be educated because they have their needs met. So I would have pursued education more early on. I strongly encourage it, I think that you can, it's learning is lifelong. And it just makes you better all the way around. It helps for interpreting when you know your information. And, and you're familiar with it.
Tina:So that kind of leads me to this next question of, you know, we hear what non CODAs say about working with a CODA, some of them like us, and some of them hate us. And I don't think that's because of them. I think it's sometimes the attitude that a CODA could portray, or you know, to give off. What advice do you give to somebody who's kind of new in the field or maybe even somebody who's been in the field hasn't really worked with a CODA or who really say, you know, I don't I don't really want to work with somebody who's a CODA Can you give them some advice on how how to make that teamwork effective?
Penny:Well, first of all, want to say, your experience of being an interpreter and you're just first time working with a CODA think back to my first interpreting job. I, I had I, the very first job I did, there was another interpreter in the building. And she was not very nice. She, I think she might have felt threatened by me. The funny thing that she doesn't know is her skills were way better than mine. She she went to an ITP school she graduated, she was, she was a good interpreter, she felt the only thing I can come up with it. She didn't like me, I was a CODA. And she just made assumptions. And we're not all the same, we all we don't have the same skill set. And I learned things from other interpreters, non Coda interpreters. The only thing that we have is the culture. And, and that you can't learn, it's ingrained. But we're not all out there to boast. And we're learning just like you, and it's a team effort. learn from each other work together, I learned some of the things that you see from the others.
Tina:And you know what, I'm going to just say this from my vantage point, sometimes I was just afraid to let a non CODA interpreter know that I really did not know what they knew, you know? Exactly. It's like, oh, gosh, I don't know what you're even talking about. I know this, I know how to sign you're right. I know the culture. But all that other stuff you're doing, what the heck is that? And it's sometimes a little embarrassing, or it was for me back in the day to let them know, like, I don't know what you're even talking about. So I want you to kind of tell me about one of your most memorable, quote, unquote, interpreting sign assignment with your parents.
Penny:The one assignment I had was difficult. I was about 16 years old. My parents were separated for years that finally decided to make it permanent. And it was a divorce, but it was actually a dissolution. So there was a mediator in the room. And I had to interpret it was difficult, because every time I would interpret for my dad, I felt like I was taking his side. When it was my mom's turn to speak and I'm interpreting for her. I felt like, oh, now I'm taking her side. I felt stuck in the middle.
Tina:Isn't that bizarre?
Penny:I didn't know. Some of the language. Yeah. Child support, alimony, palimony. I had no idea what we were talking about. I really was I actually I was younger than that. I'm sorry. It's probably about 13. Because I knew I wasn't driving. And that wasn't fun. I mean, it was too much responsibility. When my parents bought their first house. I don't know how they didn't get swindled into some horrible "Money Pit" home, it was fine. You know, it was it was a new build home, but it was very difficult to interpret a closing. They signed a bunch of papers just because they told them to.
Tina:my, my my Yeah.
Penny:And believe that the person is telling me this means and they would just summarize it. Well, there was pages of fine print. That was not looked at but again, and to hire an interpreter that just not something they did or have access to.
Tina:I still get people to this day, say, don't you have a family member that can come with you? And I you know what, I think that probably enrages me more than anything.
Penny:I had like yesterday, I just I'm interpreting so I can't change my role, but I want to just scream you What are you thinking? I want to say do you have time to take off work and drop what you're doing and go interpret?
Tina:Yeah
Penny:It's not they need an interpreter. However, the challenge that I face with my mom she really needs a CDI, with an interpreter. (tina) What is a CDI? (Penny) that's not going to happen? Certified Deaf interpreter who brings the language even to a more clear level for the person with limited my mom she you know, she's not exposed to a lot of language so they will be able to match her understanding. We're doing good to get an interpreter then you want to get a CDI. To this day, I don't see her being able to do that. So what I have to do is I have to go, they law says, you know, like, let's just say she's going to Mount Carmel for a mammogram, they're not going to let me come and interpret because now, you know, deaf people have rights, and we're going to get an interpreter or my gollie, and she'll get one will not understand the interpreter. She'll smile and nod, you know, she doesn't want to hurt her feelings. And she appreciates them. And she doesn't, she just doesn't understand them. So I have to after the interpreters done, then put I act as the CDI. And I, I tell the interpreter up front, so that they do not feel threatened by me being in there, right. And to be honest, sometimes I don't even watch because I don't want them to be uncomfortable, It really doesn't matter if I watch because she's not going to understand she's just going to smile and look at you. And then she looks to me. And then I explain it to her. Yeah, and the interpreter at the end will feel terrible. And I it's not your job. You have no way of knowing the level of understanding of the consumer that you're working with until you Yeah, and just fill out a health history form with an interpreter. My mom, it would take you two hours because one question will take you down a bunny trail, Oh, my backhurts, Yeah. When I was 14, no home. My goodness, no. Do you have asthma? Right? Yes, no, but I remember I was walking one day. I couldn't breathe. So it's it's really difficult.
Tina:Right? Yeah, I think again, I have done that to where I I'm there with the interpreter and try to make them understand we're a team. Let's just be a team here. There's, I let them know, when my mom was alive. You're not going to understand some of these things. And sometimes I didn't even understand like, Mom . Where Why did we start in the middle of this? Because I have no idea what you're talking about here. And I remember even looking at my dad sometime and going dad what mom's talking about. So to rest assure for those who who are non CODAs are listening to us. We struggle with people to don't think just because we are you know CODA eyes. There are some way even if it's our own family, it's like, I have no clue what they're saying. But I'm going to ask you this. Go ahead. You want to add some to that?
Penny:I think the only difference is We tend I won't say everybody I am I'm going to say it as I see it. I'm blunt and straightforward. If I don't understand the deaf person, I'm going to come up stop. We can't keep going down the wrong track. I can't do this. Back up. And I do the yes or no questions. And zactly that's what I have to do with my mom. Because the content, its word salad if I don't.
Tina:Yeah, and isn't it funny how sometimes we'll see all that word salad as like, man I just saw, I just saw croutons. I know that croutons. Now I know where we're going all that other stuff. I asked somebody about that. And they I said Why? Why do we have all this and she said in their mind, she believed that they understand they think we understand that whole path of where they're going. But what they don't realize is sometimes we don't but then when we see a nugget or we see something that I Okay, now I get where you're going. But sometimes it takes a long road to get to where we're going. You just talked about care one of your characteristics. Can you tell me do you have typical CODA? I better not say it like that. What are characteristics that you think you've developed from having deaf parents?
Penny:The ability to perceive someone that needs a little more explaining the expansion. I'm used to that deer in the headlight look, knowing that look and having to do that. I think VRS work, you feel so you have to stay on, you have to stay in your role as an interpreter. And I think that's difficult because in community interpreting, it allows you that time to get that one on one with the consumer. Yes, and get get to understand them a little better.
Tina:Right, because they come on the screen, it's like, bam, bam, bam, you know, we just don't have that time. Unless we're on a two hour hold or something. And then by that time, we're past, you know, some information but yeah.
Penny:And even though some of those characteristics can be construed as negative, growing up, I wasn't an interpreter I was a helper. I was, you know, I did the communicating. Now, were to just remain neutral. You're the interpreter. That's a difficult balancing scale to remain neutral and not want to help.
Tina:Yeah, I think it's kind of ingrained into us. To do that in you're right. I think the as we become professional interpreters, we had to make a lot of changes. And sometimes those things still come out of us. And it's like, oh, this is going against my grain, especially when you get a person that's your parent's age, or you just kind of know, like, I really would love to be able to just go down this other route to make this a lot easier. But you know, you're right. They have the right to understand, and they have the right not to understand and they have the right to ask, you know, for clarification, but sometimes that's just really, really challenging for us. Penny, this has been enlightening. And I know, we could probably go on for a couple of hours. But I Is there something that we never, we didn't get to touch on that you would like to add.
Penny:I think that taking advantage of everything that you can to don't put all your eggs in one basket. See your don't just do VRS interpreting, don't do just community interpreting don't, you know, do a little bit of everything, do it, you know, it spreads your mouth learn, you know, build your knowledge base, it will make your job a lot easier. You know, you know, I think you and I both held the same position at an edge at an educational field. And I'll tell you when I worked in that educational field, my peers were like, what are you doing? Why are you even there? What a waste? You know, why would you do that and support this whole mainstreaming and I really got a lot of negative attention from my peers. But I'm going to tell you, I gained so much more from that. And I think I think you're right, I don't I don't think you should put all your eggs in one basket. I think if you want to be a well rounded interpreter, do many different types of interpreting that you're qualified to do. And sometimes we're not qualified. But you can become qualified if you work with mentors or you know, do it in an appropriate way. Would you agree with that? Yes, wholeheartedly, I really believe that I don't think I would have been where I'm at now. I would have the first job as I said with you had called and asked me to become an you know, just work as an interpreter and there was just no way. And then when I got into that role, I just thought I'm staying here this is really enriching I love it. But each step I take in a different directio I love that as well I love medical, I would like to expose myself to more legal we deal with that a lot anymore. And so continuing education is the key.
Tina:And I agree and it doesn't matter who you are, what walk you've come from, what you know, CODA, non CODA, new, not new education is key, especially in a world that's changing like ours, vocabulary changes. You know, we learn more about others. I know more about other countries now than I ever did. And that started and I remembered that started back at 911. That's when I started being exposed to other countries and their signs. And so it's never I don't think we can ever say I've arrived I'm done. That's it. I'm I am who I am. And no more I hear you say and I think I also say education is key. And it doesn't mean if it's a workshop or you do something online or whatever. Education is key. Penny I want to thank you so much for coming and sharing some of your personal and I know you have so many more I know I remember the whole story of you forgetting your lunch and your mom bringing your lunch to you on the bus
Penny:using her deaf voice which I had already explained to her that people do not understand that noise that comes out of your mouth. That she's little but mighty.
Tina:She's a little Estelle Getty she reminds me of
Penny:One of the Golden Girls, She's feisty and loud. But little & petite.
Tina:She is and I always love I always loved when you guys came over. I will have to say Patty, your mom was my my favorite aunt, and still to this day and she is so kind and so sensitive too, I mean, there have been times where I've said she's like, Oh my God, you she's crying, oh my gosh, Tina, quit being you know, she's so sensitive because she's got such a big heart and she loves people. And I'm telling you, she's just I love your mom and your dad. But I think I've grown to love your mom even more. Penny, thank you so much. I can't tell you enough. I think this is going to be awesome for people to hear. And all of us as coders have a different have a different path. We all have different stories. And I think our Coda-ship if you want to use that word, or you can use it like that has made us who we are today. And I thank God for that. I truly do. I thank God that I have deaf parents and some people are like, what? Oh my gosh, it's like no, I thank God because those parents that I have have made me who the person I am today. So Penny, thank you so much. And I can't wait for everybody to hear this. And look thank you to our listening audience. I hope that you have learned something from this today. And I just hope that you join us again. Thank you