Hello, and welcome to Tina's Corner podcast. We are a group of like minded sign language interpreters set out to improve the field of interpreting. We have both Deaf and hearing consumers and also both Deaf and hearing interpreters, which complete the triad. And the focus of this podcast is to strengthen that triad. All persons listening regardless of years of experience will benefit. I am Tina Perry, and I welcome you. Today I am invited Marja Davis to share her insights experiences so that other interpreters can see that we all traveled different roads, only to arrive at the same destination equality of information for consumers. I want you to welcome Marja. Hi, Marja.
Marja:Hey, Tina, how are you?
Tina:I am well how are you?
Marja:I'm doing well. Happy New Year
Tina:Happy New year to you. Doesn't that seem like it was so long ago? Like oh, yeah, no. Did you make any resolutions?
Marja:I did not, not this year.
Tina:You know I did I do the resolution that I know I'm not going to do for example, I think I'm going to put on 50 pounds. And sure enough. (Marja) There you go. (Tina) I never I never break that resolution. I always seem to be I don't know about 50 pounds. But yeah, I always seem to be able to do those types of things. So I try not to make resolutions but anyway. Oh, well. It's good to have you.(Marja) this year I decide not to,well thank you for inviting me. (Tina) Yeah, absolutely. Now Marja Davis is has been interpreting since the year 2008. She has her NIC written, completed her EIPA performance but yet to take the written part. She has an AA degree from Columbus State Community College, my alma mater, and also from where I retired. She has a BA in Organizational Leadership and a MS from the University of North Florida. She is also a member of the Buckeye Black Deaf advocate. She's a member of the Ri d and currently Marja is teaching full time at Columbus State Community College where I also worked and retired from, She was a an educational interpreter and has done some VRS and doing a little contract work. So in other words, Marja is has done what we all do, we don't just generally have one job job, we have about 15 or 20. Right Marja?
Marja:Exactly, we are very busy. And I think we have to love that in order to be able to and I think that's, that's what we do. We love doing it. I know I do. Even though I'm still retired, I'm still doing video relay, and I still love it. Well, I want to thank you Marja, for coming here and doing this with me. So I first of all, would like to have you just take us back? Well, I better say first Marja is a black interpreter. And we we also had that discussion about how she would like me to address her and that has is what she has chosen. And so Marja, as a black interpreter, in the field of interpreting, can you, we want to kind of talk about some roadblocks that you have encountered. Let's go back to first of all, why why are you even an interpreter? What? What took you down that path. So, my journey started during my undergrad at Wright State University in Dayton, Ohio. Around the time of me approaching graduation, my advisor advised me that I was a couple of credit hours short on my elective, and me being an undergrad student, I was thinking, the easy road, let me find something easy to take to get these credits and graduate. Well, during my search for an easy class, I came across American Sign Language, had no idea the whole time I was there that this class was even offered. And so I thought, well, if I'm going to take something at this point, I might take something that I'm going to enjoy. So I took my American Sign Language courses to finish out my degree at Wright State, to of course, satisfy those elective credits. And once I graduated, I kind of was at a point in my life, and I thought, well, what if I meet a deaf person? Am I going to be able to communicate? Now of course, probably no one really thinks about that. But I thought about that. And so from then it just kind of made me think what can I do to learn the language a little bit more to at least be able to communicate? I have no deaf family, no deaf friends, no deaf neighbors. No one deaf went to my church, nothing. So there was no correlation, no connection at all. But for some reason inside of me, I felt like I needed to learn this language a little more, not thinking of being an interpreter, just learning the language. And so that's what then brought me to Columbus State and I've took the necessary courses, just to learn the language. And then the next thing I know, I'm actually deep, immersed in actual interpreting program.
Tina:Yeah, look where you are now.
Marja:I mean, I look where I am now. Absolutely.
Tina:Wow. Now tell me you were going to Wright State correct? Yes. And what what was your major other before you pursued ASL?
Marja:My major was organizational leadership has nothing to do with interpreting.
Tina:Wow. That's awesome. And you have nobody nobody, no friends or anything that could sign or whatever. That's, that's awesome.
Marja:Yeah. And so not one person.
Tina:So you completed your ASL classes there. And then you ended up at Columbus State? Am I correct?
Marja:Yes. And so because of Columbus State's program, and then the transferring of credit. I think I was actually placed into ASL two. But I went on ahead and took ASL one. It just started from the bottom and then just worked my way up.
Tina:Yeah in that, because don't you recommend that for the students even today, like I have, I used to have students that want to come and let me just jump in on ASL three and four. And it's like, listen, you will be happy that you start at ASL one. Would you agree with that Marja?
Marja:I totally agree. Because the thing about it is different schools and different institutions, teach the language maybe a little bit different, or their curriculum may be different opposed to another college that you go to, and not saying that Wright State didn't give me the foundation that I needed, I felt like it did. But going into Columbus State, who is a great college that offers a wonderful program, I felt that I needed to just in case, maybe I missed something, or maybe Columbus State teaches something that Wright, State didn't teach. Let me just start from the bottom, and then just have that extra foundation, to of course, push me, you know, to the next level, but still starting from the bottom and then just working my way up.
Tina:It definitely pays off. It may take a little bit more time, but it sure does pay off. And in your case, definitely has paid off. So when did you finally graduate from Columbus State.
Marja:So it's so funny, I always make this joke. I may, I should have been a doctor, because I went from undergrad for five years. And I was at Columbus State for four years. And it's a two year program. But I was working full time and going to school part time. So always make the joke of me as it should have been a doctor. But then I'm like, I wouldn't trade interpreting for the world. I totally love what I do.
Tina:And you know what, it is rare for somebody to come in and complete that program in two years. It's rare.
Marja:Yeah. So it's challenging.
Tina:You know, it is challenging. I even had somebody tell me, it was easier for them to be in the military than to go through that program. So yeah, it is challenging. So then you graduate from Columbus State, and then that's kind of like when you started your career interpreting.
Marja:Yeah. Yes. And you're here. And my, I actually started Oh, go ahead.
Tina:No, I was just gonna say, Was that an educational position?
Marja:No, I actually started contract with Deaf Services Center part time. So I was still working my full time job, which again, had nothing to do with interpreting. And I started just picking up evening hours with Deaf Services Center. And literally the day that I walked across the stage at Columbus State. In fact, you handed me my diploma. Oh, I don't know if you remember that. But you handed me my diploma. Literally, when the graduation ceremony was over, I went straight over to the Board of Education and filled out an application to for educational interpreting, but I literally didn't get hired until a year later.
Tina:Okay, why why was that? Was it just no positions or...
Marja:I don't know. I don't think there were any positions available. But of course, they always have the postings for an interpreter position. But there weren't any positions available. But I said, You know what, I'm going to go ahead, start the application, submit, everything needs to be submitted. So if something does come available, at least my application and all my resume and information is going to be on file.
Tina:So that sounds like some good piece of advice for those who are about to graduate is, you know, you may not get the position right away, but get get your stuff in there and show the interest.
Marja:Absolutely, totally agree.
Tina:So now Marja, I want to talk to you a little about being a black interpreter, and I want to talk about the roadblocks, challenges, whatever you want to call them. I would like for us to be able to talk a little bit about that, as far as your education goes, can you tell me the challenges that you had as being a black student?
Marja:So in the program, specifically with interpreting, I was one of one, in the majority of my classes, there were maybe towards the end, closer to graduation, maybe two black students in my class. But in the beginning, it was, it was solely just one of me, of a black student in the class. And when I say one, not even the teacher was black. And so that already put a challenge as a black student, and being in this field of predominantly white. And so it seemed that I had to set the bar for myself, that I am not going to let any students in the class or teachers deter me from not finishing the degree at the time, the certificate, and then later on the degree. So I think that was just the struggle of not seeing a familiar face. And when I say a familiar face, I mean, another black face. Sure. So I think that was just one of the challenges. And then there were times, you know, where you have students who, who have their their white counterparts, and so they favored their white counterparts. So sometimes it was a challenge to find someone to work one on one with, because I feel like in this program, you need a buddy. You need a buddy, that you can call, text, we didn't really have FaceTime, then maybe ish, but you know, someone that you can work with outside of class, to practice and improve your skills, because if it's just you, that's also then another struggle, because I don't have I didn't have that, that, quote unquote, classmates friends that I could call and lean on. And hey, did you get this in the class? What are your notes? You know, we could kind of feed off of each other. So I think that was this one of the challenges in itself.
Tina:So why? why do you think that the numbers of black students and black will leave it for black interpreters a little bit? Why do you think the numbers of black students is so low?
Marja:Maybe because they're just not seeing other people that look like them? In the classroom, on the student side, but then also on the the instructor, Professor, teacher side. And sometimes that can be a deterrent for some for some students? Well, I don't see anyone that looks like me. So if I even pursue this, this degree, what does that going to look like for me after I graduate? Is it going to be the same thing? Is, am I going to be the only one? And then is that going to be harder for me to obtain careers and jobs? You know, so I think that's a part of it. And then let's, let's be honest, the program is it's difficult, it can be very challenging. And so not only am I the only one, but I also don't have that classmate that I can kind of lean up against, you know, and you know, we kind of vibe off each other kind or bounce ideas or just work together, then that also now becomes a challenge, because now I may be struggling, but who can I also maybe vent to about my struggles and not be looked down upon? You know, as Oh, you're black,then maybet this isn't for you? You know what I mean?
Tina:Sure, sure. And yeah, I absolutely hear you. How can we do? How can we do better with this? I mean, do you think we need to be going to the to go into the schools? Or how can we do better with that?
Marja:Absolutely. I do believe that. This, the interpreting program is a wonderful program. And I do believe now, as interpreters we are now being pushed to the forefront, which is completely amazing. And maybe the pandemic is part of the reason why we're now being seen, you know, I felt like we'd have been behind the curtain for so long. But now the curtain has been open, the partition is open. So now, oh, here are these interpreters. So I think now maybe even starting in middle school, because middle schools now are really trying to get students involved in college tours and, you know, what do you want to be, you know, putting out different careers in front of their faces so that they can make these decisions about what they want to become if they decide to go to college, or if they want to do a trade, but the only way they're going to know about interpreters, and what we do is if it's, if it's in front of them, if we're not in front of them, how are they going to know. And I think if we start as young as middle school, if you put it in front of your face, then it'll always be in their mind, whether it's in the back of their mind, or the forefront of their mind. But at least now, there's more options than just saying, oh, I want to be a doctor, a lawyer, a firefighter, or policeman. Now, if I want to be a doctor, I want to be an interpreter, you know what I mean? So now there's those options,
Tina:And having you on the staff there, as well as another black instructor there. You would be able to go out and represent the college. And for those who are listening, in your programs, if you have a black instructor, you know, sending them out, because I hear you saying, it's that feeling of camaraderie, it's that feeling of like, look at them. I looked like them, you know, as far as my color or whatever, I see a connection, I feel a connection. And that's so important to have that connection. Would you agree?
Marja:I absolutely agree. It's really important for the students when they come into the classroom. It's like, okay, that teacher is black I'm black. There's, even though we may not have nothing in common, but the one commonality that we have is that our skin, our skin tones are the same. So there's that connection right there. And then there's maybe for that students a sense of like, whew this is a relief, I actually have a black teacher, they're going to understand me a little bit more opposed to a white teacher.
Tina:Yeah. And I think the other part of that is, is your black teachers, the white teachers, all the teachers learn from each other as well.
Marja:Absolutely, we can all bounce ideas, learn each other's culture that everyone can have, we can all kind of be on one accord, but also understand our backgrounds and our values and where we come from. Because everyone has a different background, we all have different values, but it's all about accepting your background, and your culture and your values. But you also accepting my background and my culture, my values, and just having a mutual respect, that we are different. And we were raised different. And that's okay.
Tina:Exactly. And you know, Royce, she and I consider her to be my best friend. And I love her dearly. And she and I could have conver, still do could have conversations about each other, safe conversations. (Marja) Absolutely. (Tina)We want to actually learn about you know, each other. And I think that's missing, I think people are afraid to have conversation. And I think it's important that people need to know, this is a safe conversation. And I'm truly coming to you to ask you, because I need to know and I want to know.
Marja:Absolutely. And I think they're also even with educators, whether you're black or white, if we're working in the same department, the same field, we need to have that camaraderie, but we also need to be able to know that this is a safe place. I don't want you to be intimidated by me. And I don't want to feel intimidated by you. But if you come to me with a question of you just honestly don't know, I should be okay with saying, Okay, let me explain or vice versa. Exactly. And that it should be a safe place for us to have open, respectful dialogue.
Tina:And I know Royce I have team taught before. And that's always been nice, because we can do different perspectives. And students can see that. So you know, I think that's one thing that maybe classrooms should incorporate is having teachers, you know, black teachers, white teachers, Deaf teachers, hearing teachers coming together, teaching together, so that we can have a different perspective. So students can understand that. And I think it's important too to allow students to have dialogue with each other, safe dialogue with each other, so that we can learn from each other because we've all grown up with these ideals and, you know, prejudices that we just carry on until, you know, somebody says, hey, whatever, whereas, hey, let's talk about this. This is why I say this, or I've seen this, tell me how help me to work through this.
Marja:Right. Right. And I mean, the conversation sometimes can be difficult, but I think if you go into it with an open heart and an open mind, I think at the end of that conversation, both parties can leave saying I'm glad I was able to help you understand this better, or I'm glad I was able to pull down that wall or that block that you had up against, you know, my culture because of whatever, you know, whatever that may have been.
Tina:Yeah. And I think a lot of times we have to go on that first time. It's just plain ignorance. But you can only claim that once.
Marja:Yes, I agree. I totally agree.
Tina:Once you get educated,you can't keep playing, you know, playing the ignorance, ignorance. And so Marja, you said you are certified? Well, we talked about that you you have the performance on one and the written on the other, am I correct?
Marja:Correct. I have the NIC written, working to take the performance, okay, for the NIC, and then I have the EIPA performance, working to take the written. But I would like to do the NIC performance before I do the written of the the EIPA.
Tina:So since we're talking to students who are maybe just about to graduate and are considering like, okay, when am I going to be ready to take certification? Tell me how you prepared for those.
Marja:You know, I think it's different for each student. I know, some programs, tell their students after they graduate to go and take the written. So they have all that information and that knowledge fresh on their mind, I took a different path, I did not do that. I waited and I got myself out in the field. And I worked because I just feel like you need to maybe experience something. There may be some students are like, You know what I'm gonna go and take the written test of performance, and at least just give it a shot. And there's nothing wrong with that. I mean, by all means, give it a shot, because at least you know what to expect maybe the next time, but my path I waited, I got experience in so many arenas of interpreting, which I feel like will build a good foundation to help you prepare for the NIC. And even though a lot of the knowledge part of the information on the knowledge exam was so far removed from my mind from when I graduated to when I took it written. I just needed to go back into study. And we all know how to study. Maybe we don't want to but we have to force ourselves. But you go back and get all that knowledge read regain all those terminology, the vocabulary, and the written is it, it'll come to you, you know, like, oh, okay, I remember blah, blah. I just needed a little refresher. Now, the performance, I think that just comes with practice, more practice, getting the mentor, whether that's the hearing mentor and interpreter of black interpreter, whether it's the deaf interpreter, black or white interpreter, whether they're certified or not, well, preferably certified. But just having that mentor, someone who has more years of experience who has been in the field longer than you, that can, you know, fix your errors, correct your wrongs. And sometimes be a little nitpicky, give you that tough love, because that's what you need. If you want something, you sometimes make that tough love.
Tina:Yeah. Tell me about the Deaf, the Black Deaf community there. How involved you said you were involved with that organization. But how involved were you with that organization as a student or as a new interpreter? And what do you recommend for students who are graduating both black and white?
Marja:So it's the BDA, which is the Black Deaf advocate, and the extra "B" is Buckeye for Columbus, Ohio. So we're the Buckeye, Black Death advocates organization. And I was involved in that organization. After I graduated, I didn't really know a lot about them. Because again, it wasn't really discussed a lot in the program of the only organization, I think that was really like kind of pounding our heads was RID, RID , and then the NAD, but like, nothing to really like, hey, for my black students, here's this organization here is this organization Naobi. So those organizations weren't really hammered in my head. But later on, after I graduated, I kind of gotten information and found out so I was really involved. But I think it seems like with a pandemic happening, a lot of people have just kind of faded away. And I believe soon that our Columbus organization chapter will shut down. Because there's people aren't, are just not attending. We don't have the numbers. Even with the deaf community, there's just not enough numbers to keep the organization up and running. And it's, it's unfortunate. And maybe, you know, in a couple of years, maybe it'll pick back up again. But that is the one that I am a part of, I have not joined Naobi that organization, but I would like to.
Tina:What does that stand for?
Marja:NAOBI is the National Organization for Black Interpreters.
Tina:I see. I don't know if this is the case can both? Is it just for black interpreters, Period? Can white interpreters join those organizations? No?
Marja:Now, we had it with Black Deaf Advocates, there have been white students that have attended some of the meetings. Just to be involved, I haven't heard specifically if it's like, oh, no, no white students, or white interpreters are allowed. I have not heard that. But it's definitely, of course, geared more for the black interpreters. And, of course, Black Deaf Advocates is geared for more black deaf. But I have not seen anything that specifically says no whites.
Tina:I see and so the recommendation, of course, as we know, as we tell all students is to be involved within the Deaf community. But we know that COVID has really taken its toll on on students being able to have live interactions. And that's really, really unfortunate. It's it's a difficult time, I think, to be an educator, I would say in any field, but especially in sign language, I think it's very challenging to teach during these times, because of the lack of one on one are you back in the classroom?
Marja:So last semester, fall semester, I was partially in the classroom. This upcoming semester, spring, I'll be blended. So I'll do maybe like a week there on campus, and then a week at home. So but not anything full capacity back in the classroom.
Tina:Yeah, that just makes it very challenging, especially the nursing home probably is closing because COVID is on the rise again. And just how it's really ruined a lot of interaction. It's just really unfortunate. Too bad. (Marja) It is. (Tina) It has it must be very challenging right now just to be a student. And then of course, you know, we're saying go interact, find Deaf people, you know, and yeah, it's it's a challenging time, I would say.
Marja:And then, you know, some students just aren't built for online learning. (Tina)Right. And that's, that's fair. (Tina) That's me, (Marja) especially when you're forced into it.
Tina:Yeah.
Marja:And it's okay. It's okay.
Tina:Yeah, well, exactly. And I don't even know if I'm a good online teacher. You know, I love the interaction, I like to be in the room with you, I want to see what you're doing. You know, I want to be able to see all where your hands are with this. And it just so limiting on online. But the one advantage for our students is that if they're doing video relay, video relay or whatever, right now we're doing, we're teaching that way. And I've even said to them, you are lucky, because this is not how we as not how I learned, you know, I'm always about the live, I want to live interpreter beside me. I want everything live, live live. And now we're really teaching you how to be video relay interpreters. And, you know, that's, that's to their benefit, I think.
Marja:I agree it is it's to their benefit, because that the times that we're in right now, so they're definitely getting a leg up on that part.
Tina:They sure are.... I mean, I know I even when I was teaching a class, I'm like, Look, I don't know how this teaming is supposed to look, I've not done it, I'm going to learn with you. And that's why we would call in team interpreters to actually interpret the class and watch them and they were doing such a beautiful job, but it was like that, that, that's what they're doing. That's what you need to do. And that's what I need to do as well. Marja I want to close here. But I have one more question for you. Can you give your best advice to students on any subject on anything just like I want all people or all students who are about to graduate or in a program or close to graduating what's your best advice for them on any subject?
Marja:My best advice for all students is never give up. Nothing in life is easy. We're going to have roadblocks, we're going to have challenges. Clearly. We're in one of the hugest roadblocks right now with this pandemic. And there will be trying times, but I would just say dig as deep in your soul as you can and just find the gumption to just push through and persevere. And even though the light at the end of the tunnel may seem very dim or very bleak, know the closer you get to that light, the brighter it will shine. And you will feel and be able to grasp that success. To black students in the interpreting program, even though you may not see someone that looks like you just know if this is what you want to do persevere through. And hopefully in the upcoming years and with the time changing, there will be more black educators, there will be more black students, so that you will have that classmate that you can lean on not saying that you can't lean on a white classmate. But if you just feel more comfortable with another, black classmate know that in these times, they're changing, and they're changing for for the good and for the better for everyone, as a whole as a country. So I just say, persevere, push through. Even if you get knocked down, you can always get back up, dust off your knees, dust the dirt off, and just keep keep going. And I wish any and everybody the best. Absolutely.
Tina:And I want to say I would guess in 2008 Marja probably would have said, Oh, I'll never be where you are now. You probably you probably said, yeah, that that that road is way, way, way, way off for me and look, and look, all that hard work that you have done. You know, if you didn't deserve it, you wouldn't be there. And that's all because of your own hard work margin. Thank you so much,
Marja:It pays off. Thank you so much. I really appreciate you inviting me. I enjoyed this.
Tina:Absolutely. I enjoyed having you here. And, and so I, to our listening audience, if you're a student about to graduate or you have already graduated, I think Marja would be a great person for you to contact at Columbus State. I know that Marja, you would be willing to give advice or to help somebody if they contacted you. I thank you so much for all your hard work, and I thank you for what you're doing for our students and to our listening audience. I thank you for listening, and have a great day.