Hello and welcome to Tina's Corner Podcast. We are a group of like minded sign language interpreters set out to improve the field of sign language interpreting. We have deaf Hearing, and deaf-blind consumers in both hearing and deaf interpreters. And the focus of this podcast is to strengthen the bond between those groups of individuals, all persons, regardless of years of experience will benefit. I am Tina Perry, and I welcome you. Today I have invited Marlene Elliot to share Marlene insights experiences so that others can see that interpreters traveled different roads on their journey, only to arrive at the same destination equality of information for all consumers. Welcome, Marlene.
Marlene:Thank you for having me.
Tina:Well, thank you for doing this. I greatly appreciate it. Now, let me tell you a little bit about Marlene. Marlene has been interpreting professionally, professionally for 34 years, and of those 32 years she has been an RID certified interpreter and is considered to be a lifelong learner in ASL, Deaf culture and interpreting. She has been teaching in the field since 1990, and is the designated interpreter with Dr. Wyatt Hall at the University of Rochester Medical Center. And also Marlene hails from Oregon. Welcome.(Marlene) Thank you. Well, Marlene, I want you to take us back a little bit. I'd like for you to take us to the beginning, if you will, and kind of let us know how this field of interpreting started for you.
Marlene:I love that question. You know, and I'm really glad you asked that. Dr. Hall and, I often tell interpreters, young interpreters, especially that that question is the Deaf culture passport. And it's important for interpreters to know the answer to that question, but to have different versions of it, the maybe one minute version of it, or even 30 seconds version of it, the two or three minute version of it, like an elevator speech. And then the full story of how your journey started. If you have that story ready, and you can tell it, and deaf people know that you're really part of the culture, and that you're culturally aligned, not just professionally aligned. And I mean, go ahead.
Tina:No, go ahead, please.
Marlene:For me, my journey started, when I just randomly met a deaf woman, I was working in the field of alcohol and drug treatment, not really that excited about the work that I was doing. And I was looking for something else. But I had no idea what. And then I met a deaf woman in the treatment center. And it just drew me in like a moth to a flame. I said, I want to learn that and I asked this woman (inaudible) and her interpreters. Where do I learn that? Where do I go, I don't want to just learn a little bit. I want to I want to know that language, I want to do that. And they said, Oh, go to the college down the road here. It's just one year in and you'll be done in one year. It's not that hard. And I said, okay, but at the end of the year, then what do I do? And they said, Oh, then you'll be an interpreter. And I said, an interpreter!! I don't want to be an interpreter. They said just go. And I did. And I ended up becoming an interpreter. And I've been very grateful for that ever since.
Tina:So that what type of program you I think you would call that an immersion program it tell me a little bit more about that.
Marlene:Yes, it was a total immersion program. My training happened to kind of in between when interpreters were trained in the community, and today where interpreters get bachelor's degrees primarily. So I was in that period of time, where people were being very creative and trying to turn hearing people into interpreters as quickly as possible. For that process, I'm truly grateful. Because immersion was a great way for me to learn. We had one year program that started in the summer and when a full calendar year, we had classes all day, mostly in sign language, mostly with Deaf teachers. And then in the evenings and on weekends, we went to Deaf events and, and spent time with deaf people and wrote papers about it. So I was with deaf people almost all the time.
Tina:Which I believe you're going to say is very crucial to learning how to become an interpreter is to be involved with the Deaf community. Would you agree?
Marlene:Absolutely. It's the only way.
Tina:I agree. Now tell me then what? Today we tell the same thing to our students but unfortunately with the onset of COVID, that has become quite difficult for students to be able to do that full immersion. What, what other ways, if there are to be able to try to get that same type of immersion experience?
Marlene:I don't know, if that type of immersion experience is possible, when you have competing demands on your time, when you're taking math and science and your electives and whatever else at the same time, you're taking your interpreting courses, and at the same time you have a personal life. So I do understand that today's challenges are different than at my time. That being said, I really strongly advocate for natural relationships. And by that I mean, I don't, even myself as many years as I've been in the deaf world, I don't go to deaf of them by myself, I wouldn't do that. It would be awkward. And I know many students complain about how awkward it is, to get assigned to go to a deaf event. Now, like you said, during COVID, not so many events are happening. So that's not the same kind of requirement. But if it feels awkward, then it is. But natural relationships are much easier. And they enrich your life. So what do I mean by that? If you like to play disc golf, go through the deaf disc golfers. They're all over the place. There's a whole bunch of people who are deaf who like to do that. And then when you get there, when something needs doing, oh, we need someone to bring the equipment, you volunteer, we need someone to be the secretary, volunteer, contribute. So you don't just show up, you become part of if you're into quilting, find the deaf quilter. If you're into hiking, find the deaf hikers, whatever it is that you would do in your life anyway, do it with Deaf people. And it won't be a chore.
Tina:That's awesome. Because it's just in your own natural environment as well. Because I know like sending a student into an environment where we ask the deaf person, you know, what's your name? What's your favorite color? Who's your mom and dad? Is so un, you know, unnatural? And can you imagine as being a deaf person constantly having that type of conversation like, Oh, come on. And I think that's great advice. Let's do something fun together. And we we communicate because we have to and we learn how to communicate with each other in that environment. I think that's awesome. I always said, when I was an instructor, was like, boy, it'd be awesome. If we could just let you all live with a deaf person for a semester. That's all no class, just live with them. And and you will survive that environment because you have to and I think that's awesome advice.
Marlene:Yeah, depending where you are as a college student, if you have the opportunity to join a Deaf sorority or fraternity, or do you have an opportunity to have deaf roommates, that would probably be the biggest, most important, most helpful thing that you could possibly do.
Tina:So once you graduated, you were now this interpreter. Now what, what happened then?
Marlene:Okay. I want to say that. First of all, there's no interpreter training program, no matter how long, where you graduate actually prepares you to go interpret all the places you're going to do that. So for my program being one year, they emphasized two things that have served me really well my whole career. One is, I wasn't actually ready or qualified to interpret anything when I got done. Right? But I was going to do it anyway. So be humble. keep my mind open and learn. So I'm going to learn from the places I go and the people I'm with. So learn, keep my mind open to learn because really, I don't know anything. And the second thing is that everything I needed to learn, I could learn from Deaf people. So spend as much time with Deaf people as possible, hang around with Deaf people. And that's what I did and that from the time I met someone deaf until I was a certified interpreter was really only three years. (Tina) Wow.(Marlene) Okay. Yeah, but that's because I was with Deaf people all the time. And because I got that very good instruction to continually learn from Deaf people. So it served me really well. And I would say that's still the foundation of my work. Is is I don't know what I don't know. So keep my mind open. and learn from every experience I have. And then learn it from deaf people.
Tina:What's your take on? As an interpreter? I won't even say a student. What is your take on the fact that they go in and they say to the deaf person? What what do you what do you prefer ASL, English, PSE? What's your preference?
Marlene:Well, I don't know if if programs still teach that? I hope that they don't. But that's the worst question possible. That's not a helpful question. And it won't help you with the answer. So it's a natural part of ASL. Where we do this thing I wish you could, I wish I could show you the sign I want to describe but it would be easier. But it's, it's the same handshapes is like machine, but where the goal meeting of someone new, both hands shapes are disconnected, they go back an d forth until you figure out where you meet on the same page, where you match. If we want to use the gloss. And that process is part of the language there there. There isn't a way to do that without having a conversation. And there's so much political about those terms, that people's relationships to those terms, might bear no resemblance to the language that they actually use. So it's not helpful. They need to talk with a person, and you need to be able to watch their face and read a Deaf face, that's probably the most important skill that I think we don't talk about much is how to read a Deaf face. And I hope you know that sign where people turn a dial on the front of their chest. That's what you're learning to do, as every time you meet someone new, you are finding that channel. And, when you're new, you're adding to your channel, because all you have when you first start is the the channel that your program taught you. (Tina) Yeah,(Marlene) and that's only one channel, there's lots of channels, do you want to get on the same page, you want to match that person. And there's the only way to do that is to converse, and to watch the Deaf face. So when you do something that's very understandable, you'll get that backchannel feedback when you choose things that aren't very understandable. You'll see that on the face.
Tina:So tell me about, the and this still happens to me to this day. "No, that signs wrong. This is the right sign". That's what I'm told. No, you're not that's not right. This is the right sign. How do we work with that as as, especially as a new interpreters? Not having a lot of variety in their sign choices. What kind of advice would you give to them when they are, when that has It has been said to them?
Marlene:Well, if a deaf person says to me, that's the wrong sign. Use this sign. I do what they say. Because they're the boss. I'm not, I'm not going to argue with anybody about any of that. Just graciously take what they give me and use it. In terms of what's the right sign for something? Again, it's a bad question, and you won't get a good answer out of a bad question. So you could say, how do how do people express this concept? What are the different ways people express this concept? Remember, there's all kinds of variation in every language, there's gender variations, there's a generational variations, there's geographical variations. There are all these different ways that people use their language, and we don't get upset about it. In English, we celebrated Oh, and in Boston, we say with a smile (accent), you know, or down south, we say, "Oh, bless your heart", and then has all kinds of new things. So we don't we don't worry about that in English. So what is this(inaudible) to have some kind of rarefied, standardized, nomenclature for things. I think it comes from fear, fear of being wrong. And if you have a deep fear of being wrong, you're going to have a very rough career and you're going to be mean to people, whether you mean it that way or not. So just take what people give you and use it. And also, you know, you have to remember that sometimes what somebody else uses, I might not be the right person to use that sign. So I know recently the things for example, a lot of discussion about the signs for"black" and the signs that black people use for it. When hearing when white people use that, it's uncomfortable for black people. So when they tell you that, don't do it, there's an idea that I could go somewhere and learn all the right things and never be wrong. And again, fear of being wrong, that you're going to be wrong, and you go, Oh, that's great, I just learned something, then you don't have to be defended. So I think just keeping your mind open, use what's in front of you, and you have to be willing to learn.
Tina:And I think you just hit a great point there on the term"black". I think communication is key, we are communicators after all, communication is key. And to be able to ask the person what is appropriate for me, and what is appropriate for me to do in this setting? I see nothing wrong with that. I think it's a learning process. We can only claim ignorance once. After that, once we've been told you cannot claim that anymore. But I think communication I think you might agree with me is very, it's key to our success.
Marlene:Yes, and being willing to adapt. I think when someone gives us feedback, can we take it? Do we know how to incorporate that? Do we see it as a gift? You know, in the Deaf world, feedback is a gift. And if a deaf person thinks you're an interpreter who doesn't have a good attitude, or you're not open, or you won't learn it, you're just going to sign the way you learned in college, no matter what they say. Or no matter how inappropriate it is, to the setting, they won't give you any feedback at all, when someone gives you feedback. They're trusting you, they're giving you something. So if they give you feedback, and you don't use it, and you don't incorporate it is like returning a gift. It breaks your relationship with that person. So sometimes somebody has, especially in technical settings, they'll have a sign for something that I might not ever use anywhere else with any other deaf person. And that's good, that's okay, so I use it with this person in this setting, because they have some reason why that's the sign they prefer and they don't need to explain it to me. But it doesn't mean I'll necessarily take it and go anywhere else with it. Because every situation, every person uses language differently. And that's good.
Tina:I love that feedback, consider it as a "gift". Because I think sometimes we consider it as negative, criticism. You're not You're not good enough. And I think it's very important that if we can see it as a "gift", and that they trust us enough to give us that feedback. I think that's awesome advice. Thank you for that.
Marlene:Yeah, I would just add to that. Tina while we're on the topic, is that sometimes programs will teach interpreters to at the end of job to say if you have any feedback for me, and I wouldn't do that, I wouldn't recommend that. I think it's like saying, Ok, you just put up with me and or you just got to know me, but give me a gift. I culturally, I would not ask for feedback. But what I would do is if I can, not rush out, have a nice conversation, do a good wrap up with folks. Say it was really great to see you that was fun, or that wasn't fun, and we roll our eyes together or whatever, you know, have some kind of joining together. And then you say something like, "I hope I was clear". You know, clear is a really good way to talk about the work with Deaf people I hope I was clear. And and then you know if you see that person again, you can say hey, "if I'm not clear, let me know". You know, always feel free to ask me or don't be afraid to interrupt, you know that sign "to interrupt". And then you're inviting that way, but I would never say do you have any feedback for me?
Tina:Good advice. Good advice. I like that. So now that I see you were certified two years after interpreting professionally, am I correct?
Marlene:Really, at the time, it was taking nine months to get the results from our tests, or like just the test. I took the test one year out of well really just pretty much right out my one year program. I have no explanation for why I learned it so fast other than I can say that shortly after I graduated my program I did learn that one of my father's sisters, my aunt died when she was young. And I always knew that. But I found out that she was deaf. And she went to a school for the deaf. And I, it was a family secret I never knew. And it really never came out until I became an interpreter. So why did I learn so fast? I like to think it's because of my answer like, she's my little angel.
Tina:That's awesome. That's awesome. How did you prepare? Or did you prepare?
Marlene:Oh, I didn't prepare at all. I mean, at the time, I was working all the time. And when I wasn't working, I was hanging around with deaf people. So I was just averse. And I said, Well, let me take this test. And then I'll know what the test is like. And I should say that I'm a good test taker. So I'm not(inaudible) test anxiety. And I didn't have a lot of family or financial commitments. So definitely wasn't any burden on me to just go take the test. And I passed it. So yeah, I did. It was back when it was CI & CT. And I took the I took the CT, because I said, I'm not 100% sure what they want from ASL . But as an interpreter who mentored me said, "Well, if the test is for English, you can't be too English". I said, Okay, we're really focused on representing the English rather than, you know, communicating in ASL. And I. That was good advice. Because once I took it, it was a brand new test at that time. So I had just come out like, we, right after I graduated or completed my program, we didn't graduate with a degree, but it had just come out. And so people were not passing it. And we're wondering, but then I got I got some good advice. And I took it right away. And, and then I took my CT, which is for interpreting, I mean, my CI correcting myself there. So I took the CT first, and then CI.
Tina:So what advice would you give a newly graduated or somebody who's been in the field, Not not so very long? What advice would you give them to prepare for the certification test?
Marlene:You know, I don't know how much good advice I have for that. There are people who seek(inaudible) and prep courses. And I would talk to someone who knows the current test. I don't know the current test, I would want to learn what that test is and what they're looking for, and have other people kind of crack the code of of being successful in that test. And there are people who definitely have that expertise to go to an expert. I'm not an expert in that if I was going to take that test, I go to one of those people, right now and say, "What do I do?" I don't know. Right? I haven't taken it. Right. So you know being humble and asking questions, and getting help is always helpful.
Tina:Yeah, and and what I'm hearing from your journey is immersion, immersion, immersion, and just being with Deaf people. And I think, you know, I would tell my students, I'm now retired. But I would say you would not go to a dentist that said, "you know I've never done a root canal, I just didn't have time to practice these so you're my first one", who would sit in that chair and let them do that to them. And it's kind of the same thing we say to deaf people. I didn't really have time to interact. But I want to be your interpreter. How much trust would you have in that person? Not very much, of course.
Marlene:Right. And I think, you know, it's, it's, that's a great example. At the same time, in dentist's training, they don't start off doing root canals. They get trained by being with other people. You know, they have someone standing next to them supervising them, and I think, that in our field is mentoring. So it brings up a good point, that mentoring is really important. I will just say that, for me there's a little frustration for me today and what technology has done to how work gets divvied out, how people get work as a freelancer is not organic in a way that it was when I was starting out. So I would find interpreters that I looked up to I liked their work. I wanted to learn how they did that. And I would ask them, can we team together? And we would tell the agencies that we worked for that we would like to team together. And they would look for opportunities for us. And so we wanted to find work where it would help me stretch, but not so much that it hurt hurt anyone, or that I wouldn't function well enough. And then while the other interpreter was working, I was observing and writing notes and asking questions the whole time, and then afterwards, we would have time to talk about it. So in those days, schedulers in order to fill a job, they would have to call people on their answering machine. Because there was no such thing as email. So they're not going to call 150 people and see who answers first, they're going to call the four or five interpreters they think are the best match for that job. So it was a different time today, everything goes out on these all calls or email blasts, and whoever answers first gets it. But if you can work with a local agency that's willing to help you find some interpreters whose work you admire, and then go work with them and learn how they do that. Sometimes some of those interpreters will have some contracts where they can bring as well, it really depends on where you are, and how the how the work goes out where you are. But I would say that teaming and mentoring is a is a primary task.
Tina:Hmm. And I think the whole mentoring idea is really improving. Whereas back in the day that you and I started, it was just kind of unheard of, as far as actual mentoring programs. So I think today, I see a lot more of it. And more and more people are willing, as far as seasoned interpreters to work with those who are just starting out in the field. And I think, you know, you just see, there's a great improvement in that in that arena. The other thing is, go ahead.
Marlene:I think I'd mostly just get, I think I must have just been very lucky because where I am, it was very easy back in the day. And I think today, it's a little bit harder as well. But but it was in very informal, was very Deaf Culture. Like the interpreter culture was more like deaf culture. So you know, you find somebody you want to learn something from and you go be useful to them, and you go learn from them and you develop a relationship.
Tina:Yeah, and I think but interpreters that are starting to" have your face in every place". What I mean by that is, when the deaf person sees you, here and sees you there, and the most successful students from the program that I taught in, were the students who were everywhere, everywhere they were, if there's a deaf person, they were there. And you had just said it earlier volunteering, not necessarily to volunteer to interpret, but to take tickets at the door or to be here. We're deaf people see you. They know, "Oh, this is one serious person".
Marlene:Yeah, I think in more than (inaudible) is, this is someone we can trust. (Tina) Exactly. (Marlene) We're not just coming here to make money off of us is she or he is part of our community. And, you know, really, when you show up to those things with your Deaf friends, they go this okay heairng person, because I like I said before, I don't show up to things all by myself, even still, if none of my deaf friends want to go to the play. I don't go. But usually if I want to go, (find someone) I've had 20 years to make a lot of friends. But, you know, if nobody is going that I know, I'm not gonna go I'm not gonna show up somewhere. It's weird. You know, it's weird to be a hearing person just showing up somewhere without deaf folks at a Deaf event. So, those friendships are key. So you show up. Yep, show up everywhere, but make some friends and go with your friend. And when you keep showing up with your friends with Deaf people, like you said, deaf people will notice that ohh this is a person who's actually becoming part of our communities.
Tina:Yes. Marlene, this has been awesome and I want to kind of wind down but I have one last question for you. What would you tell what would you tell yourself now? Like, what what let me rephrase that. What one thing and there may be more than one what one thing would you do differently on your journey?
Marlene:What would I do differently? I can't think of I would do, I would do differently. I mean, I would say that I was very lucky that I didn't have children. I didn't have a spouse. And I didn't have other family obligations. So I was able to immerse myself in the Deaf world, very happily, it wasn't a chore for me. And, like, I've recommended, I made a lot of deaf friends and I spent time with my friends. And I was, you know, I was 30, you know. But, you know, I was young. And I had plenty of time to spend with people. And so that was very fortunate, I don't know for sure how people juggle, though. competing demands, because, you know, when you have your kids, your kids need you, it's your family and go join the deaf world. So finding some other you know, if I was a mom with young children, I'd look for other for Deaf moms with young children or, you know, again, try to organically. It is more challenging when you have more responsibility, but I was very fortunate. And I would just like to say, one thing that I'll add, you know, I was almost 30 when I met deaf people. And today, I'm losing my hearing. And people say, "Oh, you must be grieved". I think that not really, because all my friends pretty much are Deaf or interpreters, and everybody fine. So I'm on my social life is fine. But I, you know, sometimes we have this narrative that if you aren't native, you're never going to be a really good interpreter. You'd never really be part of Deaf culture, or, you know, it's some kind of barrier, but I didn't grow up around deaf people. I didn't meet anyone deaf until I wa almost 30 And, and I'm part of the Deaf world. Now will my signing ever look truly native? Oh, gosh, no, you know, that's not a bad thing. There are deaf people who prefer me. And I prefer them. We really like working together. And I think it goes back to the points I made in the beginning, you know, that humility, and being willing to learn takes us a long way. So will I be native? No. Do I ever cry about that? Nooo. Do I ever really enjoy watching beautiful native signers, I will every time, you know, and it's not a bad thing that I won't have that, it's just enjoyable that somebody else does. So it's not a competition! No, I think so. I think, yeah. If there's anything I could change, I would learn sign language when I was growing up, but I can't do anything about that. But but it's okay. It's okay to be who we are, naturally be part of the Deaf world and accept ourselves.
Tina:I think that's great advice. And I want thank you again for coming and giving us all of this advice and wisdom and your journey sounds awesome. Your journey sounds like you've been with Deaf people. And I think that's the one thing I hope that our listeners will be taking away is, if you want to be good at this or to do well in this field, it's important that you have deaf interaction. They are the best teachers, regardless of what anybody says, they are the best teachers. Marlene, thank you so much. Our listening audience I'm sure has learned a lot from you. And I really appreciate you taking the time on a Saturday morning to come in here and give us all this wisdom. Thank you so much.
Marlene:Oh, it was an honor to talk with you. Thank you, Tina.
Tina:Have a great day.